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Post by yankee on Jan 16, 2011 22:55:23 GMT -5
First year: 9th, Second year: 10th, This year: worst MAAC defeat in history of the program. You sure you want this cycle to continue?
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Post by dewd on Jan 16, 2011 23:44:28 GMT -5
What put us in this downward trend was a change in coaches, like it tends to do. I personally do not hold CM's first year against him because it was going to be a bad year no matter who was there. Last year was the bottom of the downward trend, so it should improve from here for the next few years. If you look at a graph of MAAC winning percentages for the teams in general, you can see the peaks and valleys that all teams go through (think of Iona, champs in 2006, 3 years of PIGs and now at or near top - and can you Siena near the bottom next year?). Marist's graph is a typical 5 year cycle. Started low in 1998, peaked in 2002, bottomed in 2004, peaked in 2007 and bottomed in 2010. Changing coaches risks making the 3-year downward trend into a 6-year malaise as a new coach comes in to a barren landscape with little reason for good recruits to come here.
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Post by Red Fox 5 on Jan 17, 2011 0:22:01 GMT -5
What put us in this downward trend was a change in coaches, like it tends to do. I personally do not hold CM's first year against him because it was going to be a bad year no matter who was there. Last year was the bottom of the downward trend, so it should improve from here for the next few years. If you look at a graph of MAAC winning percentages for the teams in general, you can see the peaks and valleys that all teams go through (think of Iona, champs in 2006, 3 years of PIGs and now at or near top - and can you Siena near the bottom next year?). Marist's graph is a typical 5 year cycle. Started low in 1998, peaked in 2002, bottomed in 2004, peaked in 2007 and bottomed in 2010. Changing coaches risks making the 3-year downward trend into a 6-year malaise as a new coach comes in to a barren landscape with little reason for good recruits to come here. You are spot on with the peaks and valleys of Marist's cyclical trends over the last decade plus. The difference between us and the other programs you mention is...those other programs have all won championships at the peaks of their cycles...multiple championships. Marist has always found a way to under perform and disappoint even in GOOD seasons...so I think virtually all of us long time fans have used up alot of patience even during the good times. I've been a fan since 1994. I don't know what a Marist conference championship is like...I know what being upset when you're a conference favorite is like (1996, 2002, 2007). I know what losing EVERY game to your biggest rival in the conference tournament is like (0-5 vs. Siena). And now I know what being a bottom feeding laughing stock is like. So to go from a competitive program/team for a couple decades whose issue was not getting over the final hump (to a championship) to all of a sudden a program/team, (that instead of building itself forward into a team that can get over that hump and win the MAAC crown), is now falling rapidly backwards to where we can't even see that MAAC crown with a telescope is really really frustrating. No one on here was condemning this coach in year one despite setting a record for losses in a season with 23 and finishing in last place for the first time ever in the MAAC. No one would have condemned him last year for a small step back based on the youth...but the step back from 2008-2009 to 2009-2010 was so large that patience started to be lost. The steps forward this year are so small they're barely noticeable. I can sympathize with anyone who has totally lost patience with this coach at this point. For me personally...There have been a few times this year where I've sat back and said to myself...maybe he really does need one more year...this freshman class is solid...good PG coming in...Prescott coming into his own...lots of talent leaving the other MAAC schools again after this year... ...but everytime I think that something like today happens. When Marist looks like an elementary school team against another teams 2nd and 3rd string players mostly. He's obviusoly safe for the rest of the year...SHOW US SOMETHING THE FINAL 13-14 GAMES, CM! Make us believe in the future...what happened today can NEVER even close to happen again.
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ken
All-MAAC 1st Team
Posts: 1,243
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Post by ken on Jan 17, 2011 13:26:38 GMT -5
Finally had time to read thru all these posts. I am a Marist supporter hence for now a CM supporter. I have preached patience and have said I see progress. Yesterday was a predictable step backwards, a big step backwards. I've also said I think some players have lost confidence in CM and vice versa obviously. Johnson is gone because of that and I suspect that Price may leave for the same reason. What happened to Alexis is anyones guess. Bauer was recruited by Brady, He was never going to be a star here just a role player. yes he HAD to play major minutes last year but that's because of the Drummond screwup. I't's too bad people here feel that a player should play just because he's a senior and/or he played well last year. IMHO he did not play well last year. Lots has been said about the poor play against Iona but not once did anyone mention our starting point guard. (And as was stated above Price is mostly an undersized 2 - agreed) The PG is supposed to be the leader on the court. This team is playing with a second or third string point guard getting the majority of minutes. Our problem now and for the remainder of the year is the play if our PG. Too many bad decisions and poor play. A top flight PG will improve this team immeasurably. I hope and pray that guy is Morton BUT Watson was supposed to be the savior too. If next years recruits are equal in talent to this years recruits then we'll be fine in the future.
lastly, I've read that the coach is steadfast in his approach to the offense. But we've seen him run set plays. They are not always running the DD. The defense has improved, the free throw shooting has improved, except for the Siena game, The rebounding has improved. The coaching has improved though I need to put it under an electron microscope to notice the difference from last year. But it has improved.
Yeah the Iona game sucked but as was said it was going to be a loss and it is only one.
Do not expect a complete turn around Thursday in Lawrenceville either. Iona and Rider are the two best teams in the MAAC.
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Post by nomar33 on Jan 17, 2011 13:34:25 GMT -5
Thank god it was only one cuz now we sit at 4-1
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Post by yankee on Jan 17, 2011 15:16:31 GMT -5
3 years in and we are still pimping small strides like this Ken? When do Marist fans not accept mediocrity and now crap? Its enough. There needs to be some accountabiliy. 3 years in an no good point guard in your estimate? WHOS FAULT is that? Price and Hall BOTH HIS recruits. The whole mentality of this team and the fan base needs to change. We accept poor results way too easily. ENOUGH, at least for me.
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ken
All-MAAC 1st Team
Posts: 1,243
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Post by ken on Jan 17, 2011 18:17:56 GMT -5
CM is solely responsible for not having a better PG The bad stuff all falls on CM. But so do the good steps. As far as I'm concerned and I've stated I'm an optimist, the good out weights the bad at this point. That is subject to change over the next 6 weeks though.
Has anyone spoken to Tim Murray about our concerns???
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Post by yankee on Jan 17, 2011 22:14:52 GMT -5
ken, weren't you the one bringing up how he treats the kids in practice? How does the good outweigh the bad at this point? Honest question as I respect your viewpoint.
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Post by foxman on Jan 17, 2011 23:51:53 GMT -5
Ken, I agree with Yankee's question to you - how can the good outweigh the bad at this point? You now preach patience but after the Fairfield game you ended your post with "Bye Chuck". You've had a change of heart since then? Why?
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ken
All-MAAC 1st Team
Posts: 1,243
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Post by ken on Jan 18, 2011 9:52:58 GMT -5
I brought up that the kids gave up during the FF game and that CM is firing F-bombs constantly at practice. Someone responded - why is that considered unusual, it happens all the time? OK I accept that. If it takes F-bombs to make your point with young men I guess that's understandable. Not the way I would communicate but to some it's acceptable. But I did see the kids give up during the FF game. That is of great concern to me, still is. I was not at the Iona game so I do not know if the kids gave up, the coach gave up or they just played as badly as they can play.
As for positives: There was a post by Red Fox 5 a week or so ago with Marist stats/ rankings in MAAC games. All the numbers are a big improvement over last year. The defense is much better than last year. The Free throw shooting is much improved. The ball movement has improved. They are competitive sometimes; which is more often than last year. I understand and accept the ups and downs. Many players are better. Maybe not the improvement some here want and expect but they have improved. Like I said to see the difference between last year and this year you probably need to put the two under an electron microscope. I think everyone feels good about Kemp. I've noticed improvement in his game in just a few games. Bowie is a keeper, we all agree. Prescott has started to show his ability and shown a scorers mentality. Suddenly we all like Carter, I liked him from the beginning. Disappointments ; Drummond, Kaba, Watson, Hall, blowouts.
My heart changed when I witnessed this team play hard for 40 minutes against Siena. That after beating Manhattan at Draddy, something not even JJ & WW could do.
Though I do not have to apologize, I'm sorry for seeing this team as having potential. Sorry for being an optimist. I've been sitting in the same seats since 1984, missing very few games over that time. I've seen a lot. The group of players now wearing Marist uniforms is more athletic and deeper than any group I've seen. But, Ken, what about the coach? He brought the players here. He is still learning to be a head coach. Not many succeed at their first head coaching position. Could that be because the school's supporters grow impatient and do not want to deal with the growing pains and the learning curve. I'd rather wait than start all over. I am not ready to start all over YET. And that is what would happen if CM is dispatched. There is no interim measure. I have also said that my opinion is subject to change over the next 6 weeks.
Has anyone spoken to Tim Murray?
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Post by foxman on Jan 18, 2011 10:13:43 GMT -5
Ken
I was at the Iona game. They gave up. I got the distinct impression that they gave up before the game even started. This is simply the coach not having the players ready to play. It doesn't matter is you're playing undeclassmen, a coach is responsible to have his players ready to play ALL the teams on the schedule (not just the bad ones like Manhattan).
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ken
All-MAAC 1st Team
Posts: 1,243
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Post by ken on Jan 18, 2011 11:22:10 GMT -5
I need to ask. Did you see anything positive at the Siena game?
Has anyone spoken to Tim Murray?
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Post by yankee on Jan 18, 2011 13:39:41 GMT -5
Tim Murray may be busy dealing with many of his other successful head coaches and programs. This is Chucks team, not Murrays. It would be Murrays mistake on hiring Martin if he ends up as big of a failure as he appears now, but his overall work at this college is incredible. President trophies and some top notch programs. It is crap to say all we should care about is mens basketball. That is not fair to the rest of the scholar athletes on campus. Hopefully Murrays hands are not tied by the contract and they can do what needs to be done. You can see Murray looks disgusted at the games, but he has not picked the players. He has not implemented this system. He doesn't scream at the players in practice with curse words. He does not bring the team out unprepared and lose by 39 points to a fellow MAAC team. He doesn't lead them to getting destroyed by AE and like teams over the past few years. The hire is on him. But, his overall body of work, EXCELLENT IMO.
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Post by foxman on Jan 18, 2011 14:26:38 GMT -5
Ken,
In response to your question "did I see improvement in the Siena game". My response: I, like all on this board, would like to see sustained improvement through time. We are not getting it.
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Post by igotyouback on Jan 18, 2011 16:07:53 GMT -5
My mom always said if you dont have anything good to say dont say anything. But I have a question if you are a college basketball player and your playing for a losing team and you want to go to another school should you play bad to get out of the school and if you do play bad do you think another school with take you? ? Where are the guys from last year?
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