What has happened to this program

[terminator]

Hello all.

I am a 2006 Marist Alum who is new to the board. I am someone who used to be real close to this program during my days in Poughkeepsie. I was on row for a majority of the JJ and Willy Whitts years and remember the McCann center go from dead to alive in a mere few years.

I know Brady's inability to recruit players to Marist and him leaving the school high and dry has done significant damage to the program, something they are still dealing with today.

I guess my question to the Marist Red Fox Hoop nation is why are we continuing to struggle to recruit good players to Marist? Even during the good JJ years, Brady was unable to recruit the team good young players and we only had a team that was barely 7 players deep. We have a great gym, better than anyone but Siena and Fairfield, a beautiful campus and Marist is an up and coming school. Yet for some reason this program continues to wallow in ineptness. Is the reason this happens because:

1.) Martin is a bad coach
2.) Marist doesn't spend on mens hoop like other schools
3.) Academic Standards too high
4.) Murray and the AD are doing something to hold the program down.

Can someone please explain to me what exactly is going?

Thanks

[ggaff]

Welcome Terminator,

I feel the same way you do. I've never understood why they haven't been one of the dominant programs. I think the McCann is a nice place to see a game but I don't think it's as good of a facility as they should have. I think they do need to put more money into the program or they'll always be 2nd rate. You are exactly right. Even during the JJ and WW days, the talent level was really thin after 6 or 7. I do think the standards are higher than other MAAC schools. That's a good thing but it probably does hurt in terms of talent. Martin will have to have a good year next year or he'll probably be gone. He needs a big time front-court player to supplement what he's brought in. A Glover type.

[Red Fox 5]

Welcome, excellent post terminator. I was actually preparing a similar post in the near future and your points 1-3 were all things I have questioned myself.

The CM years have been a disaster so far, but the problems with this program go further back. It's now been a quarter century since this team has won a conference tournament and gone to the NCAA. Every other program in the MAAC has gone in the last 17 years, half of them more than once.

It's been since 1992 since Marist has even won more the ONE game in the NEC or MAAC tournament. That is kinda of mind boggling. I think it speaks to the lack of depth and overall talent that is recruited here. The MAAC as a whole is out recruiting Marist. Why? I would assume our answer lies in one of those first three points.

I've been to many of the other campuses around the league. Marist is at the top of the list as far as quality of the campus. Marist is at or near the top in educational value. Despite playing in the"high school gym" Marist usually outdraws every program for men's games other than Siena and sometimes Fairfield, even this year only SIE, FF and ION outdrew Marist so the fan support is there. Route 9 Pok is not utopia but compared to the physical location of many of these other campuses it's not that bad.

I think CM has proven to be a sub par XO's coach so far, hopefully he can get better. Jury is still out on his recruiting...points 2-3 I believe are where the answer lies. I do not have statistics on coaches salary, assistants salary and recruiting budget for each MAAC team, but the rumors I've heard are SIE, ION, FF and perhaps some others are sinking more money into men's bball therefore drawing higher profile coaches which obviously helps recruiting. I could be wrong but I have a feeling that's the case.

As far as academics, if the Marist standard is higher than the rest of the MAAC, I don't agree. Academic standards should be the same at all schools in a given conference. Say you have a pool of 100 recruits, 50 have GPA's over 3, the other 50 between 2.0-2.5. The 9 other MAAC programs can pick any of the 100 players, but Marist can only look at half the list. How is that fair? How can Marist ever compete on an even level.

Are there other teams in the conference that have a higher academic standard than the rest of the league? I really don't know.

The academic standard thing could be THE biggest reason that Marist lags behind in overall talent. Even on the best teams with Magarity it was always one big recruiting class with 2-3 legit good players every 3-4 years and than the rest of the roster pieced together with role players.

Marist has never had a steady pipeline of players and never recruited a team that went 9-10 deep.

[nomar33]

I have to dissagree the point about Brady not being able to attract talent to Marist - sign Jay Gavin (who was a MAAC Rookie of the Year) and had a very good class coming in with Wells, Moore, Semenov, and Flores - Flores looks like only bust out of that group. So I'm not convinced that we can't get that talent needed with the program as it is (meaning the gym and the money spent).


I am convinced that there is some talent on this team (I don't think Martin has recruited that poorly) I just think he has no idea what to do with them once they get here - hence the XOs mentioned be RF5. I watch them play and there is just no organized offense - none. And I do agree with everyone that we might be getting a special player in Morton but again my concern is it is going to be wasted in this offense.

I agree that the "gym' atmosphere migth be a big deterent in recruiting (on men's side only - Coach G can at least say to recruits - you want to play in an empty beautiful arena or to a packed house every night?) I for one think they are wasting the 8 million rennovations planned on expanding the coaches offices, and locker rooms - they are going to add seat backs and try to give McCann a more arena feel - but not sure that is money well spent - spend another 10M and get it all done right the first time.

And yes our coaches in general need to be better compensated - and we need to get some better teams into McCann - bring back the Pepsi Classic - or get some A10, MAC, CAA teams to come to McCann.

CHANGE OFFENSE - ADOPT ANYTHING OTHER THEN DRIBBLE DRIVE

I want Martin and his other coaches this summer at camps learning from other succesful coaches a new offense that can work with these current players - because if that doesn't change all the Morton's in the world wont help.

[foxman]

I'm starting to think the success of the women's team has had an unintended negative impact on the men's team. The women's team has a record of success under Giorgis, gets national media attention, is drawing bigger crowds than the Marist men and bigger crowds than most MAAC mens teams. So, from a revenue perspective, the weak mens team is more than offset by the strong women's team. Therefore, there is little incentive for the administration to boost salaries on the men's side if they can get a better return on investment on the women's side. They just gave Giorgis an extension which I have to presume was at a salary increase over his previous contract. There is just so much money to go around and Marist, like all colleges, is a business.

I agree with Nomar that the capital investment in McCann makes no sense when one looks thru the lens of the men's team, but, it makes perfect sense when you look thru the lens of the women's team; making McCann more attractive to female recruits. Also, some big-time women's teams will come to McCann to play, no men's teams will.

Maybe Marist is getting the rep as a "girls" basketball school where the men play "second fiddle". If you were a high school guy maybe you don't want to come here for this reason (?).

I've always had the suspicison that this is what drove Brady to look elsewhere. He didn't want to be seen as second-best. If you recall, he was being wooed by Quinnipiac (in the NEC, a lower ranked conference than the MAAC) before he left for JMU. He wanted out of here at all costs.

[oldredfox]

Martin is not a good recruiter. Why recruit another 6 5 small forward. we have Bowie, Carter and Alexes and no power foward. Brady did recruit he got juco guys that helped. he knew he would not be around.

[oldfox]

I also think it's facilities as a barrier to recruiting, and willingness to pay coaches. (though in all honesty, my opinion regarding salaries is based on what I've read here an other places, not any first hand knowledge). I do think the locker room, coaches area upgrades are a step in the right direction and will help, but the McCann Center Gym, is still, err....a gym.

It has nothing to do with the women's teams success. The men's team was bad, long before the women's team was great. Also I do believe both the men's and women's team had their most success (NIT win/sweet 16) in 2006-2007.

Matt Brady left because someone offered to double his salary. Not because the Women's team had success. If UConn call him tomorrow and said they would double what he's making at JMU today to replace Calhoun, I doubt that the women's program's success would ever cross his mind.

www.sundevilwomenshoops.com/index.cfm - a video tour of ASU Women's Facilities. Obviously built with donated money. Click on the facilities link along the top.

[Red Fox 5]

Mar 7, 2011 9:36:22 GMT -5 @foxman said:

I'm starting to think the success of the women's team has had an unintended negative impact on the men's team. The women's team has a record of success under Giorgis, gets national media attention, is drawing bigger crowds than the Marist men and bigger crowds than most MAAC mens teams. So, from a revenue perspective, the weak mens team is more than offset by the strong women's team. Therefore, there is little incentive for the administration to boost salaries on the men's side if they can get a better return on investment on the women's side. They just gave Giorgis an extension which I have to presume was at a salary increase over his previous contract. There is just so much money to go around and Marist, like all colleges, is a business.

I agree with Nomar that the capital investment in McCann makes no sense when one looks thru the lens of the men's team, but, it makes perfect sense when you look thru the lens of the women's team; making McCann more attractive to female recruits. Also, some big-time women's teams will come to McCann to play, no men's teams will.

Maybe Marist is getting the rep as a "girls" basketball school where the men play "second fiddle". If you were a high school guy maybe you don't want to come here for this reason (?).

I've always had the suspicison that this is what drove Brady to look elsewhere. He didn't want to be seen as second-best. If you recall, he was being wooed by Quinnipiac (in the NEC, a lower ranked conference than the MAAC) before he left for JMU. He wanted out of here at all costs.

I hope this is not the case. It would be extremely disappointing if it is. The school should strive to be #1 in every sport. The women's success hopefully continues but in no way can the men's program be brushed aside. Let's be honest...the men's program has the MOST potential to bring media attention both regionally and nationally to the school when compared to any other program at Marist. Men's DI basketball is a big time sport...big time. The other sports including women's basketball & I-AA football do not come close on a national or regional media level.

It would be shortsighted to pull back the reigns on the men's program because your satisfied with the success of the women's. Let's be great at BOTH. That would bring more national exposure for the school, the men AND the women.

Anyone remember the atmosphere at the men's Siena game in Feb 2007. That was electric...no other game has ever come close to that. Let's get that back in McCann!

The Marist women drew 2250 per night at McCann this year. The men 1750 for a team that went 7-56 the last 2 years. History tells us that if the men even go 17-15 the would draw over 2500, a 22+ win team would come close to selling out ever game, 3000+

[Red Fox 5]

Mar 7, 2011 11:36:22 GMT -5 oldfox said:

I also think it's facilities as a barrier to recruiting, and willingness to pay coaches. (though in all honesty, my opinion regarding salaries is based on what I've read here an other places, not any first hand knowledge). I do think the locker room, coaches area upgrades are a step in the right direction and will help, but the McCann Center Gym, is still, err....a gym.

It has nothing to do with the women's teams success. The men's team was bad, long before the women's team was great. Also I do believe both the men's and women's team had their most success (NIT win/sweet 16) in 2006-2007.

Matt Brady left because someone offered to double his salary. Not because the Women's team had success. If UConn call him tomorrow and said they would double what he's making at JMU today to replace Calhoun, I doubt that the women's program's success would ever cross his mind.

www.sundevilwomenshoops.com/index.cfm - a video tour of ASU Women's Facilities. Obviously built with donated money. Click on the facilities link along the top.

The locker room and seat back upgrades will help but I don't think the facility is the main factor here. I think a combination of getting second fiddle coaches and tougher academics is the most likely issue.

It would be GREAT if we had a standalone 5,000 seat first class arena...but I would say Iona and Rider have had more success than Marist the last 20 years by alot yet they play in worse facilities. How are they getting by with their worse HS gyms? I would really like to know.

[nomar33]

5000 too much - you want my vote for the arena we need to mimic - the whole complex cost 40 million not sure what the arena cost.

www.bucknellbison.com/facilities/buck-sojka-pavilion.html

[ken]

1. The jury is still out on Martin as a coach and recruiter. The real test is next year, his players and upperclassmen. The prelims were the last two years. Next year everything counts.
2. Marist may be frugal but that has not hurt the women's program. I don't think they spend too little on the men's program.
3. I think one of our biggest problems is the academic standard at Marist. I think it is tougher to get into Marist than Iona. I do not think Marist is operating on a level playing field here.The MAAC standards may be publically stated as equal but I suggest that some schools loosen the standard for "certain" individuals. Not Marist however. We all say we want a Glover type. Well we had a player from the Big East transfer to Marist and he could not cut it academically. I doubt Glover would either.
4. No way are the powers that be trying to keep the men's program down.

One thing we all want, the fans, the Administration and us bloggers and that is a top tier MAAC men's team. But Marist has never been a top tier team really. We've always been middle of the pack or lower. Yes there were years when we had great seasons but where did that get us, the NIT. I yearn for a year like that but it is not the norm

So we all want something we've never really had. This is not a bad thing just difficult to achieve. I think that is why the Administration is more than willing to let this whole thing play out much to the chagrin of jgood & nomar.

I know we've wanted more at this point in the CM program but he admits he's made mistakes and we've all discussed his shortcomings and mistakes. He is still learning how to be a head coach and the Administration knows that. There is no denying that this team got better in the past month or so. It is also acknowledged that injuries hurt this team this year. It is acknowledged that academic suspensions has also hurt this team. That reminds me of the academic standards at Marist being tougher than at some of the other MAAC schools.

Whether we like it or not this team will be the ones wearing red & white this coming October and CM will be the head coach.

[redfoxfan102]

Good topic. This has been bugging me as well.

Facilities is a bad excuse. St. Peter's is in the MAAC final game, St. We Advertise On The Freaking PATH Train Peter's. Iona is in there too. Both schools have inferior facilities to Marist.

Compared to most of the conference, Marist has good facilities. The McCann Center, with a few upgrades, is just as effective as that Bucknell arena. Like RF5 said, the home game against Siena in 2007 is the be all, end all. That, to me, proved Marist does not need a crazy upgrade. We have a great homecourt advantage that good mid-major players would love to be a part of.

I think the problem of paying coaches could explain a lot. If I recall correctly, after Brady left, they had offered the job to another guy, but he turned them down and they ended up with Chuck. Does anyone else remember this? And was it because of money?

Then again, Iona got a D2 coach like Tim Cluess, was that really an expensive hire? Still, Marist really should have ditched the costly football program and put that towards basketball and other sports...you know, like every other MAAC school.

Academic standards is an also interesting theory. Marist has already lost a few players because of academic standards. But then again, Fairfield is a tougher school academically than Marist, how are they having success? Maybe they relax their standards when it comes to hoops and we don't?

The problems eventually all come down to recruiting. Whether Marist isn't getting or keeping good recruits because they don't have a good coach who can bring them in (i.e. the money issue) or because its too tough of a school (i.e. the academics) - it has to do with the players they are bringing in and/or not bringing in.

The players who are here, while have shown spurts of greatness, come off as a group of role players. Name me Marist's go-to-guy in the mold of a JJ or Willy Whittington? Exactly. I guess Sam Prescott is the closest thing, but no offense to Sam, he's not exactly someone who strikes fear into opponents I'd have to guess. Then there are the players who have transferred out or got kicked off the team (we won't even mention the Casiem Drummon disaster). Then there are the guys Marist missed all together (Edwin Ubiles from Poughkeepsie is the worst miss IMO) for some reason.

It comes down the players, which comes down to recruiting.

Haha long winded response for a short answer :-)

[terminator]

All very informative responses. I also find it to be amazing that it has been so long since the men have won multiple MAAC tourney games.

I have also felt for a long, since I was a MC student, that the football program was a waste. It will cost the school and AD so much money to make the program into any that is worth talking about. I think the most embarassing moment was when I was a Senior and the football was part of a 3 team tie for the conference title, a conference made up of 4 teams!!

The best way for the school to increase it exposure through athletics is to have a strong men's basketball program. Unfortunately, the school has been swinging and missing with their Head Coach. Dave Magarity was ok but was HC for a few year too long. Brady did a great job developing JJ, Willy Whitts and others but he never brought in talent to back up those players. He had two years to help solidify the bench for the 06 and 07 teams but never did. JJ and Will both had to play 40 minutes a game and were spent by the MAAC tourney. Once Brady started to recruit, he found a better job and took all his recruits with him; setting the program back several years. I know little about Martin and haven't seen too many of his games but from what I read his Xs and Os don't fit the team we have. I guess he gets another year, but is there any reason to expect big things from the program. Also, what does he need to do to save his job? Is the bar set low?

What the program needs is better coaching. Look at Siena. They had both Paul Hewitt and Fran McCaffery and have had prolonged success. We need a coach who can bring in a good system and find players who fit. Maybe it is time to look at the people who are making the personel decisions.

As far as the McCann Center, it has the potential to be a great place to play ball. I am glad to hear that they are upgrading the offices and locker rooms, both of which are way over due. Imagine if the school didn't waste all that money on upgrading the football field? Back in 05,06 and 07, ESPN loved the McCann center and several Marist games were shown on ESPN 2 and ESPNU. As previously mentioned, that 07 game against Siena was one of the best atmospheres that I have ever experienced in person.

[nomar33]

oh NO those green bleachers HAD to go - I think football does more for the school then you think. And the little Pioneer League they entered gives us nice exposure to other well known Universities around the country - now i will grant you that the travel expense for that league is silly.

[terminator]

There have also been several players in the program who have not panned out like hoped.

Dennis Young: The guy went from up and comer to dud in two years.
Brandon Ellerbee: Lots of potential but never lived up to it. I will always remember the missed fastbreak dunks
Pierre Monagan: Kid never caught a break at his time at Marist. From the shooting to several injuries, he never got on the floor
Kerry Parks: Kid with potiental who failed out of school. Never made an impact
Carl Hood: Had a great freshman season but his bad attitude had him falling well short of his potential. Became a good defensive player before his career was over

Not to mention the Gerald Carters, Kayleen Anthonys, that Brady first recruited. Those guys never sniffed the floor and led to a thin bench during our best years.