bxfox
On the Pine
Posts: 3
|
Post by bxfox on Mar 1, 2011 21:49:58 GMT -5
Can anyone find an example of a coach having this poor of a record in his first three seasons and then going on to be a successful head coach?
Has any coach started off with a worse record in there first three years of division 1?
|
|
ggaff
MAAC POY
Posts: 3,214
|
Post by ggaff on Mar 2, 2011 6:51:15 GMT -5
We will look............ :-) He might have the worse record. But once again, we'd have to compare apples to apples. We'll find situations where in yr 2 there was jr and sr talent left. And yr 3 had no jr or sr talent. Nobody disputes the record. I (we) just think that there aren't too many guys out there that would have had more than 4 wins with last year's team and 7 or 8 with this year's team. Combine that with the fact that it's his first job. Let's face it. It is a risk to put an unproven head coach in charge of a rebuilding job as big as this was. He rolled the dice with Drummond and lost. I think that's what we all would have wanted him to do. Just to get some upper level talent in. If they had him last year, they probably win 7 or 8 games if he is healthy.
I think we'll have to search hard to find a situation where in yr 3 the coach got 85% of his scoring from frosh and sophs... I do think the talent has increased yr to yr. The problem you have when the cupboard is totally bare is that there is absolutely no room for error with recruiting. If 100% of your guys aren't capable of being instant contributors , you're in trouble.
The point about firing him now isn't even worth talking about. If Marist won't do it, why blame the guys who think CM should get one more year? Blame the guys who make the decision. We have all said that a change might be warranted if all of the facts justified it. That's why I don't understand the constant references to the CM supporters. I will say one thing. Obviously, CM knows basketball and talent. The comments about him being forced into things are unwarranted. Unless we were in all coaches meetings and practices, we have no idea what leads to personnel decisions. Does anybody honestly think he doesn't realize that Alexis doesn't have talent? He recruited him didn't he?
Sorry to ramble bxfox. I turned a short question into a long answer. I'll look for some examples.
|
|
ggaff
MAAC POY
Posts: 3,214
|
Post by ggaff on Mar 2, 2011 6:59:36 GMT -5
P.S.
Usually what happens is that a guy comes in and inherits some players that were just about to turn the corner and they make him out to be a genious like it's rocket science or something.
|
|
ggaff
MAAC POY
Posts: 3,214
|
Post by ggaff on Mar 2, 2011 7:06:25 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by ctalum on Mar 2, 2011 10:33:24 GMT -5
I may be in the minority on this but I am not convinced CM can coach. The recruiting portion porion of ggaff's comment is still up in the air.
As an alum the 5 academic suspensions is a huge black eye that is going to take a lot to overcome.
I am resigned to one more year of this experiment.
|
|
bxfox
On the Pine
Posts: 3
|
Post by bxfox on Mar 2, 2011 10:50:06 GMT -5
i like coach martin and i think he is a very good person. i was a little frustrated at the beginning to hear some things he said comparing memphis to marist, but overall i think he is a good guy who is trying his best. Is his best good enough? It can be easy for people on the outside to judge and obviously there have been a lot of setbacks. At the end of the day though a lot of the setbacks are due to decisions he has made and at the end of the day guys not qualifying or being academically suspended starts with the head coach. Not only does he have to be a good judge of talent but also judge who has the ability to stay eligible --- and also make sure his staff is on the players to stay eligible.
I have never been a head coach of a high school or college program but I have to imagine that if we had a good coach he could coax more then 1 win last year and more then 5 this year. The McCann Center used to be a place where it was hard to win even with our least talented teams --- now we are encouraged if the game is within 10 points in the second half. Not sure what the answer is but I do know I have definitely seen coaches go to places with less talent then he started with and by year three they are a very good team.
|
|
|
Post by nomar33 on Mar 2, 2011 11:43:24 GMT -5
Ct i dont think u are in minority
|
|
ken
All-MAAC 1st Team
Posts: 1,243
|
Post by ken on Mar 2, 2011 13:40:42 GMT -5
It's all about learning on the job. Whether it's as a new head basketball coach, a new supervisor or elected official everyone makes mistakes when they are put in their first position of managing others, of taking responsibility for everything and making all the decisions. So the question is can you truly compare any two since the circumstances and situations they each operate in are different? Some are slow learners, some are quick adapters and some just will never get it.
When I became a supervisor I know some of the decisions I made my first few years I would never have made in year 5. I learned on the job, learned how to deal with all the responsibilities, the staff, the situations, the decisions.
Chuck Martin is that new guy, trying to learn on the job. We did not make that decision, that decision was made by the Marist Administration. ( a group we all acknowledge has done a remarkable job with their decisions, academically, athletically and culturally). Do I think there is some doubt on the Marist campus? Certainly, but those in charge have lots of experience doing their job and are willing to let the new coach continue to learn on the job.
I know, please tell what "learning on the job" progress has there been. As was recently posted, CM recruited Carter so he must have known or seen something. Forced to play him. So what. Carter took advantage of the opportunity. Lou Gerhig started because Wally Pipp had a headache. There have been a few on here that have noticed improvement in the play of the men's team. The players are learning too, Without a big brother to show them the way or to stand up to the big bully. The coaching staff has changed the offense by installing specific plays to add to the DD offense many dislike. But I say they are all finally starting to get it. They've played their best basketball in the last few weeks. Oh yeah and it was mentioned how many wins we might have had if Drummond had played. I ask how many wins would this team have had it Kemp played in all the games? The improvement I've witnessed on the court the last several weeks is proof enough for me that they are all learning and starting to understand their jobs.
There is hope. It takes time and we might as well get used to the idea that CM will be the head coach for the foreseeable future. Why? Because he deserves the time, the patience and the learning curve.
|
|
bxfox
On the Pine
Posts: 3
|
Post by bxfox on Mar 2, 2011 15:03:31 GMT -5
I guess.
Getting paid a lot of money to learn on the job. We could have paid someone nothing and had similar results.
|
|
|
Post by nomar33 on Mar 2, 2011 15:12:48 GMT -5
That is a cushy job - ken. When i hire a plant manager for one of my large cement factories he better have learned everything he needs prior to me hiring him, whether it was from working as an assistant plant manager or if i brought him in from a competing firm - he messes up in year 1 it could cost me millions and get someone seriously hurt - so not buying it is ok to make major mistakes the first couple of years on a job. No if that is the case I hired the wrong guy and I better get someone else in ASAP
|
|
ken
All-MAAC 1st Team
Posts: 1,243
|
Post by ken on Mar 2, 2011 15:34:30 GMT -5
bx: I have a philosophy that we do not get paid for the work we are currently doing, we get paid for work we've already proven we can master. We are all free agents. So unfortunately most jobs are learned on the job.
Nomar: We are not talking about millions of dollars here though. I know of no one who has become a manager/supervisor that was not given some slack in the first few years. Nor do I know any manager/supervisor who would not like to rethink in a later year a decision they made in their first few.
I know of a situation where an experienced concrete plant manager was at the helm when ash was added to the mixture, placed on a job, an Interstate highway bridge. The entire bridge deck had to be removed. Cost hundreds of thousands of dollars. Don't know if he lost his job. So you can hire the best guy you know of and he can still screw up!
No one I don't care how well they are trained will not make decisions in their first year that they may regret later on and would do differently with the necessary experience.
Marist decided to hire a head coach with no head coaching experience. (Remember others were considered). They must have known when they hire CM that this could happen. If not he would be gone.
Did anyone pause to think that Marist might be looking at the money they are paying the head coach as an investment in the future? (This should generate lots of fodder)
|
|
|
Post by petagay77 on Mar 2, 2011 15:41:19 GMT -5
That is a cushy job - ken. When i hire a plant manager for one of my large cement factories he better have learned everything he needs prior to me hiring him, whether it was from working as an assistant plant manager or if i brought him in from a competing firm - he messes up in year 1 it could cost me millions and get someone seriously hurt - so not buying it is ok to make major mistakes the first couple of years on a job. No if that is the case I hired the wrong guy and I better get someone else in ASAP Yeah but its only bball .. cement work is much more serious than teaching some kids to run a bball play .. they dont remotely compare.
|
|
|
Post by nomar33 on Mar 2, 2011 16:02:17 GMT -5
Yeah its only bball to us and yeah we can wait ten year to be good but think about the players. They got only four years to get it right and for many that is half over. This is supposed to be a great time in their lives think any of these guys are going to have fond memories if this continues. Our guys have a very long shot at NBA but we have sent many to Europe .... what a great first job even it is for two years. Yeah we can preach patience what do we care we got all the time in the world.
And again the number of suspensions, the lack of production those mistakes are unforgivable. If his biggest mistake was not starting the walk on then id say ok but some of these mistakes are easily avoided and he obviously didn't learn much from last years suspensions.
|
|
ken
All-MAAC 1st Team
Posts: 1,243
|
Post by ken on Mar 2, 2011 16:10:09 GMT -5
There is no doubt that CM has made more than enough mistakes. That's what I was referring to in my learning on the job post.
I'll bet if you ask the players they will tell you they are enjoying their college experience with one exception, all the losing. And believe it or not, life is about more than winning and losing. Most of the kids know their primary objective is to get a FREE education while playing a GAME wearing the schools colors.
|
|
|
Post by petagay77 on Mar 2, 2011 16:48:44 GMT -5
Yeah its only bball to us and yeah we can wait ten year to be good but think about the players. They got only four years to get it right and for many that is half over. This is supposed to be a great time in their lives think any of these guys are going to have fond memories if this continues. Our guys have a very long shot at NBA but we have sent many to Europe .... what a great first job even it is for two years. Yeah we can preach patience what do we care we got all the time in the world. And again the number of suspensions, the lack of production those mistakes are unforgivable. If his biggest mistake was not starting the walk on then id say ok but some of these mistakes are easily avoided and he obviously didn't learn much from last years suspensions. Yeah i hear ya but They do get a free (full ride) EDUCATION TO PUT A BALL IN A HOOP ... and girls flocking to them daily. Life aint that bad for these guys ... trust me .. and again, yeah there could of been better monitoring for some of that stuff but players have to be accountable for 'their" own actions as well (maybe to many girl flocking/ distractions - who knows) .. coaches cant take the test for them or force them to listen. maybe you can take away some playing time but what more can you do until a kid grow up and get it.
|
|